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Bangsa Malaysia Berikan pendapat anda bagi mewujudkan BANGSA MALAYSIA!

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  #21  
Old 25-11-2006, 08:37 PM
Gemukkk Gemukkk is offline
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1) that shows you dont understand the difference. there is a difference. as per the recent case, there is a difference in "wishing you a happy deepavali celebration" and "wishing you a happy deepavali".

2) the full text is available. it is a matter of people not making the effort reading it. you can bring the water to the cow but you cant make the cow drink the water.

3) do you know what is a fatwa in the first place?

4) again i ask, where is the encroachment?

5) as times and times i repeat, why convert in the first place?
again i ask, was there any coercion?
you choose, you live with it.
so again i ask, where is the encroachment?
why the need for function over form? you choose, you live with it.
if you choose to lie at the time of conversion, why make a fuss?
again i say, apostasy is a specific ruling. do i need to repeat?
contractual marriage? you really dont know anything about islam then.

6) rights of the family? but where is the encroachment? can the family provide a 100% certainty that there is no attempt towards apostasy? eh, isnt that an encroachment into islam?

7) isnt that common law, to favour the father? the kids are not above 18, are they? add to that, it is an islamic ruling.

8) what proper conversion? who asked them to convert improperly in the first place? why punish islam instead? isnt that stupid?
does that mean that we should sue a homeowner that didnt lock his door properly instead of the thief that went into his house?

9) blanket ban is for muslims. where is the encroachment?

10) so you were not in silibin lah. so you admit it is a conjecture lah.. well, i'll take that as a conjecture from someone who wasnt at the actual place at the actual time in the actual situation. it is ok, everyone's a desktop judge nowadays.
people were there as early as 6am until 11.20am. plenty of time for tension to rise. but so far, no evidence of any right? how come there is no police report of heckling, jeering, intimidation, threats, vandalism, etc.? i am sure the media would loooooove to report that as a way to tarnish mufti.

11) go on, give as many examples as you want. i will make time to answer all.


insofar, i still dont understand where is the encroachment.

next time, those who want to marry a muslim, tell them to think carefully. dont simply blame everything on islam when it is their fault. that's so lame. in islam, everyone is accountable for his actions. no such thing as a free ride in life and making others a scapegoat.
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  #22  
Old 25-11-2006, 10:12 PM
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1) that shows you dont understand the difference. there is a difference. as per the recent case, there is a difference in "wishing you a happy deepavali celebration" and "wishing you a happy deepavali".
Perhaps I don't. Perhaps I'm a simpler person. Perhaps I'm not fond of making mountains out of molehills.

2) the full text is available. it is a matter of people not making the effort reading it. you can bring the water to the cow but you cant make the cow drink the water.
That's a convenient excuse. People are as accountable for the impact of their actions (intended or otherwise) as well as their intentions.

3) do you know what is a fatwa in the first place?
That's the best part. As a non-muslim, I shouldn't have to know because it shouldn't affect me. If Islam was a religion of a people, and not of a state, I won't have to.

4) again i ask, where is the encroachment?
Not sure which point this is attached to.

5) as times and times i repeat, why convert in the first place?
again i ask, was there any coercion?
you choose, you live with it.
so again i ask, where is the encroachment?
why the need for function over form? you choose, you live with it.
if you choose to lie at the time of conversion, why make a fuss?
again i say, apostasy is a specific ruling. do i need to repeat?
contractual marriage? you really dont know anything about islam then.
I guess I don't. If a religion counts as adherents those who have left it in mind and heart, then I don't.

6) rights of the family? but where is the encroachment? can the family provide a 100% certainty that there is no attempt towards apostasy?
This is where the ranking of what's important differs for you and me. You are saying that the relationship between minors and the religion of their parents supercedes the relationship between them and their natural guardian. I say it does not and it cannot.

eh, isnt that an encroachment into islam?
Why should the "rights" of the state to retain the religiousity of those kids, be superior to the rights of natural family to love and care for their flesh and blood?

7) isnt that common law, to favour the father? the kids are not above 18, are they? add to that, it is an islamic ruling.
Nope. Common law predisposes the custody of children to the mother. Besides, at the time of conversion, he was still married to his Hindu wife in a civil marriage. The civil court has not given full custody to either parent as an individual. They both still have full rights over the kids. And those kids were Hindus at birth. Why didn't the religious dept get the Hindu establishment's permission first? The mother and natural guardian is not muslim. Why should she and her children be subject to an islamic ruling?

8) what proper conversion? who asked them to convert improperly in the first place? why punish islam instead? isnt that stupid?
So you admit that the father did convert improperly. Then how can he remain a muslim? In this case, I don't care because he was a lowlife anyway. But the kids were definitely converted inproperly.
does that mean that we should sue a homeowner that didnt lock his door properly instead of the thief that went into his house?
Yes, the owners of the adjacent terrace houses should sue that homeowner for not locking his door, because the thief came into their houses as well via the airwell accessed from that homeowner's ceiling.

And of course, the thief should be penalised as well.

His victims (ie. the kids) should be liberated from being held in the house.

9) blanket ban is for muslims. where is the encroachment?
Again, the kids are not muslims. They were converted improperly. By any stretch of the imagination, they are still Hindus.

10) so you were not in silibin lah. so you admit it is a conjecture lah.. well, i'll take that as a conjecture from someone who wasnt at the actual place at the actual time in the actual situation. it is ok, everyone's a desktop judge nowadays.
people were there as early as 6am until 11.20am. plenty of time for tension to rise. but so far, no evidence of any right? how come there is no police report of heckling, jeering, intimidation, threats, vandalism, etc.? i am sure the media would loooooove to report that as a way to tarnish mufti.
All I can is that the mufti is more than doing his part providing them with the opportunities.

11) go on, give as many examples as you want. i will make time to answer all. insofar, i still dont understand where is the encroachment.
Sadly though I don't see the point. Your views are at opposite ends to mine as I believe that religion is a personal faith. The keyword being personal. It's no business of the state and other people.

I believe the laws of faith are within each person, and at no time should it be the laws of the country. But in a country like Malaysia, where the goose is already cooked, then the laws of islam that apply to this country must at all times be construed narrowly, whensoever it affects the rights of a non-muslim as a party in the dispute.

And I realise you will not agree to that, as I will not agree to anything less.

next time, those who want to marry a muslim, tell them to think carefully. dont simply blame everything on islam when it is their fault. that's so lame. in islam, everyone is accountable for his actions. no such thing as a free ride in life and making others a scapegoat.
I believe that accountability applies to the muslim who wants to marry a non-muslim as well. He must not be so lame as to marry his non-muslim spouse anyway if he is not absolutely confident of the latter's devotion to Islam. As you said, he cannot make his non-muslim spouse the scapegoat. The fact that his faith compels his prospective spouse to convert infers an additional burden on him and the religious department (as the administrative face of islam) to ensure the conversion is genuine. If such a laissez fair attitude is taken to place the burden only the convert, then islam loses all moral ground to compel conversion.

But I agree. Converts must think carefully and the journey must not be made easy for them. I would propose that all prospective converts need to obtain a release from the authorities of their prior religions and obtain the approvals of all their immediate family members as well, before they are allowed to convert. That is only fair.

Last edited by seantang : 25-11-2006 at 10:23 PM.
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  #23  
Old 26-11-2006, 09:02 AM
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Well done Marina for that excellent article. I guess she is stressing that some people are just plain "penny wise, pound foolish". They don't get to see the big picture.

Well Gemukk, from your points mentioned, it seems that you are not a fan of Marina Mahathir and that is fine as I think that's your personal opinion. But whatever she said has significant elements of truth in there. Well thats my opinion.

Lets not talk about religion or race now. Let's just talk about Malaysians in general. I think liberalism, tolerance and understanding and of course, respect for law (which should be just) is the way to go. I think nobody has the right to comment on another's religion or race. Going around talking/shouting/doing stuff that causes disharmony and chaos is certainly counter-productive in both the economic and socio-political sense.

Move ahead, break all barriers, work together and perform, under one roof, don't be trivial and selfish and most importantly, respect all. Only then things can start to make sense and all of us would be happy economically which is the proven basis of gratification and unification of most developed countries around the world.

It just amazes me how some people go at lenghts to protect self interest (and I mean all races) at the expense of society at large. For example, corrupt leaders, Ah Longs, the practise of the "caste system", bribery, shoddy construction work for quick profits, fraud, sexual perverts, peeping toms, illegal alcohol, drugs, prostitution and gambling joints, abuse of power, school bullying, gansterism, disrepsect for laws (mat rempits, illegal logging, satay shops, porno VCDs), corporate fraud, tax evasion etc etc. These are the things which should be looked at seriously in a democratic society. Don't you think so?
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  #24  
Old 26-11-2006, 10:34 AM
Gemukkk Gemukkk is offline
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Hi Sean

1) you hit the nail. people who DONT know the full rulings are making mountains out of a molehill.

2) that's no excuse. in fact, refer to no. 1. it just shows that people who make noise at nothing are same like cows.

3) so if you dont want to know about fatwa, why bother in the first place? as i have said, fatwas affect muslims only.

4) just tell me where does islam encroach on others.

5) the specific ruling has pages and pages of explanations attached to it. since you mentioned you are not interested, then why condemn the fatwa before knowing the full text?

6) natural guardian? is not their father one? even in common law?

7) how about rights of the father as their legal guardian?

8) did i say the father converted improperly? i am referring to other people who convert improperly and then want to apostate.
i would also like to know of any landmark/precedent cases as per your explanation. this would be good knowledge.

9) converted improperly? how? in what ways?

10) how about the millions in malaysia? no one sued him or make a police report against him?

11) religion is a personal faith. then why the tirade against islam?

12) that person is already accountable in the islamic teachings. this does not stop with the marriage but extends even to the kids, naming, limitation on contacts, allocation of real estate,etc? if interested, please read up islamic law. if not interested, then please not make an issue of this.

12) thanks for agreeing with me.



Hi Rooster,

I agree with your point. Thanks for respecting my opinion.

My many posts in other threads would have shown that. I have voiced out against PAS, BN, NGOs, talk-cock politicians/persona, etc. and even fellow muslims in the forum too, if i feel they read me wrongly. I agree with your many examples that should have been taking out attention, other than this.

I dont like marina because i have read her columns before. for someone having a PM (for a very very long time) as her father, i hate her for not making changes but talks cock all the time.

I agree about not commenting on other religion. Did anyone read ANY post from me on anything negative about OTHER people's religion?
But I am sure everyone have read my posts CLARIFYING things about my religion that was misunderstood. I dont like it when my religion is being accused of so many things by people who DONT know the full teachings associated with an issue.
If the issue is in a 'discussion' mode, i dont mind. in fact, i enjoy that.
so where is it that i DID NOT respect other religions?

From the time i joined this forum, i have always posted on 'action' rather than talking (chewing, swallowing, regurgitating, chewing, swallowing & regugitating again).

i wish people have more clarity like you.



-- CAPS were made to emphasize the point, not a shout or a provocation. if anyone is offended, please tell me so that i will change it --
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  #25  
Old 26-11-2006, 11:42 AM
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1) you hit the nail. people who DONT know the full rulings are making mountains out of a molehill.
2) that's no excuse. in fact, refer to no. 1. it just shows that people who make noise at nothing are same like cows.
It's nothing if religion doesn't invade into public space which is multi-religious. When it does, even the cows have rights. Refer to points 4-12.

3) so if you dont want to know about fatwa, why bother in the first place? as i have said, fatwas affect muslims only.
All would be well, if those adhering or interpreting them take due care not to affect the lives and rights of non-muslims. Refer points 4-12.

4) just tell me where does islam encroach on others.
Let's get this straight. I am not saying that Islam as a faith does or does not do anything. I am saying the application of certain procedures in Malaysia, done by mortals in the name of Islam, does encroach on non-muslims.

Most of all in relation to conversion. I already mentioned the rights of the non-muslim family of converts. Conversion affects their lives as well, besides the life of the convert him/herself.

5) the specific ruling has pages and pages of explanations attached to it. since you mentioned you are not interested, then why condemn the fatwa before knowing the full text?
Refer point 3.

6) natural guardian? is not their father one? even in common law?
Yes, in joint custody with the mother. It's a joint chequing account. His rights are equal, but does not supercede hers. They both need to agree. In the absence of both due to factors such as death, the natural guardian becomes the immediate families of the parents.

In the case involving conversion, one set of immediate family is by definition non-muslim. They (grandparents, uncles/aunties) have rights as natural guardians and blood relatives. This must not be glossed over summarily simply because they are non-muslims.

7) how about rights of the father as their legal guardian?
As above. His right is joint to the mother's. He cannot exercise those rights to the exclusion of the mother.

8) did i say the father converted improperly? i am referring to other people who convert improperly and then want to apostate.
i would also like to know of any landmark/precedent cases as per your explanation. this would be good knowledge.
Besides this one where the father converted and then converted his child without the consent of the non-muslim mother, there is the case of Moorthy, the Everest soldier which the religious dept says converted, but his wife says no.

9) converted improperly? how? in what ways?
How can he convert if he is still married to a Hindu? As with the Moorthy case, how can he convert without settling his prior non-muslim affairs first, like the custody and religion of his hereto non-muslim minor children and the status of his civil marriage?

10) how about the millions in malaysia? no one sued him or make a police report against him?
You'll need to ask those millions.

11) religion is a personal faith. then why the tirade against islam?
No, you've got me wrong. I am not against Islam. As far as I am concerned, Muslims are welcome to practise their religion as they see fit. How they practise their faith is none of my concern.

If you read my posts again, I have said nothing whatsoever about the practise of islam by and its impact on those who are undeniably muslim.

What my 'tirade' is about, are the non-muslims where they are affected by the application of procedures, in the name of Islam, as interpreted by local authorities. For instance, what I am talking about is the definition of who is and who is not Muslim, insofar as it relates to converts.


The act of conversion affects more than just the convert. It affects every person attached to him by whatever ties. The fact that it concerns a convert means that these attached persons are necessarily non-muslim. And since Malaysia has two legal jurisdictions (civil and syariah) and upon conversion, the syariah court deeply affects these non-muslims, we need to get a firm definition of who has converted and who has not. Under what circumstances, subject to what process - defined and AGREED by all relevant parties.


Conversion is by definition a multi-religious and family-related action. It is the exit from one religion and entry into another. Both religions should have a say into the validity of the conversion. Before there can be a proper entry into one religion, there should a properly processed exit from the other.

And non-muslim families of converts stand at risk of being subjected to the syariah court for various matters - from custody of children to ownership of assets and inheritance etc. It follows they need to agree beforehand, explicitly to be subject to the syariah court's jurisdiction or sue for the convert to subject himself to the civil court on all matters involving his non-muslim family. This is especially so where the treatment under civil and syariah courts differ.

Therefore, to define and finalise a conversion, according to the dictates of only one party, can only be no less than unfair.

12) that person is already accountable in the islamic teachings. this does not stop with the marriage but extends even to the kids, naming, limitation on contacts, allocation of real estate,etc? if interested, please read up islamic law. if not interested, then please not make an issue of this.
As I said, get the exit-entry procedures of conversion and the settlement of prior non-muslim affairs right first.

Last edited by seantang : 26-11-2006 at 11:51 AM.
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  #26  
Old 26-11-2006, 12:30 PM
Gemukkk Gemukkk is offline
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1&2) where does conversion affect non-muslims? where?

3&4) where does muslims encroach on others? where?

i hate to repeat myself that when a person converts, is the religion wrong? you go scold the person lah if you want to. why the religion?

5) where in point 3? where is the encroachment? where?

6&7) are you saying common law is wrong?
yes, the family of the convert has rights too. does that mean he HIMSELF loses his right?

8) what do you mean he improverly converted? refer 6,&7.
the everest guy converted & the religious dept has proof. so?

9) you dont know about conversion, dont you? again, you shoot the religion when it is the person you should shoot.

10) well, the millions dont see mufti encroaching anything. what's one against millions?

you say you are not against islam but read all your posts again. is it against islam? you readily say you dont want to know certain full texts, yet you try to judge. what is this?
you say your tirade is about this and that. since when if mufti part of that process? do you know which dept handles conversions?

convert? since when are converts qualify as 'non-muslims'?
do you know how a conversion process works, since you say about defining and finalising?
what do you know about saying 'syahadah'? do you know the heavy burden laid on a muslim for rejecting a convert?
since when does a definition of muslims affect you?
since when does islam needs a consent from everyone?

again, what you say is more on religion instead of the person himself. yet your examples all refer to the person. shoot the person lah, why shoot islam?

12) again you shoot the religion instead of the person.

i'd like to ask again. do you know how a conversion process works and the burden associated with a conversion? if you are interested, please read. then you will know why it is difficult to reject a non-muslims conversion into islam.
if you are not interested, then it is up to you.
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  #27  
Old 26-11-2006, 01:02 PM
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I am NOT "shooting" islam.

I am 'shooting' it's application in Malaysia by people who represent it. And only insofar as it affects non-muslims.

You are looking at conversion from a one-sided view only. It's as if the convert's prior life as a non-muslim ceases to exist after he/she converts.

I'm saying that cannot be. The prospective convert has obligations and responsibilities that he must fulfil first before even contemplating conversion.

The muslim side of the conversion process (entry) is only half of it. The non-muslim side (exit) must be dealt with adequately first before the entry side can even begin. And I'm saying syariah jurisdiction cannot adequately deal with the a convert's non-muslim side of the affairs.

You keep saying that I do not understand islam and muslims. Maybe... I definitely can't debate you muslim teachings as I am not a practitioner of the faith.

But I put it to you that you're totally ignoring the non-muslim perspective. You are choosing to assess conversion with a muslim point-of-view only. But as I said, a muslim is where the convert ends up, not where he begins. Both beginning and end must be given due regard.
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Old 26-11-2006, 01:52 PM
Gemukkk Gemukkk is offline
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syariah court was meant for muslims and have no jurisdiction over non-muslim.

truly, i didnt ignore a non-muslim's perspective. i just hope everyone understands that this is not about islam being wrong, but the person himself/herself.

let me explain.
quote; "It's as if the convert's prior life as a non-muslim ceases to exist after he/she converts."; unquote.
a person has to settle all things; pre&post conversion (that includes non-muslim's side, marriage, religion, real estate, subsidence, etc.).
irregardless of excuses, he will be accountable ie. no clean slate granted to him in that sense.
so if you say the person should be shot, i totally agree.

on the part of conversion, it is a matter of the person thinking carefully before converting into islam because there will be many complications.

as for the islamic authorities, they cant reject a person converting into islam because this would be a heavy transgression under islam. the best they can do is to explain the best they can, on what the person's decision would entail.

if that person does it 'improperly', ie. for the sake of marriage, money, etc. then that person should be answerable and bear the consequences later. so if someone here says that person should be shot, i would say 'aye to that'.

hope this can clear things up.
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Old 26-11-2006, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemukkk
yes, you are wrong to say that. it would be shallow and presumptuos to think so.
it would be sad if such tunnel vision still exists.

I am very glad that I am wrong in my assumption. Once again I beg your forgiveness on my mistake.

Your despisement of her may be due to your high expectation of her to take action to correct the wrong. No doubt she is the daughter of our ex-PM. But how influential is she on her father? If you know TDM well, then you shouldn't blame her for that because even the whole Cabinet were unable to stop her father from carrying out thing that he already decided to do.

In addition, she is not even part of the government. She is only the leader of some of the NGOs which many of them have been neglected by our government.

Frankly, if I would like to give any credit to TDM, I would praise him for bringing up a Great Daughter of Malaysia for all Malaysians.
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Old 26-11-2006, 09:19 PM
Gemukkk Gemukkk is offline
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is ok.

yes i admit my expectation is high. i believe she is influential enough to help out in many other ways. certainly not in policy-making or using goverment machineries.

tdm helped out his sons' businesses in many ways. as you have said, had tdm decided to help out his daughter, the whole cabinet would be unable to stop him.
for example, had her daughter asked him to speak to the minister on the need for speedy allocation of welfare funds to the needy, many would be thanking her in their prayers.

yes, you are entitled to admire her.
me, i'd go for tan sri dato' sri dr. zeti akhtar aziz (as malaysia's great daughter), the late lady diana who achieved much too without being in the cabinet & mother theressa.
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