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Bangsa Malaysia Berikan pendapat anda bagi mewujudkan BANGSA MALAYSIA!

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  #51  
Old 29-11-2006, 11:23 AM
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seantang seantang is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemukkk
again you blame religion/process rather than the person.

that is why i keep requesting to understand how conversion is done, because there is no full process of conversion or steps or procedures or anything.

as i requested many times, you need to understand the simpleness and most importantly, how binding a conversion is, not just to the person but to other muslims as well..
once the parent say the kids convert, the islamic rules/process comes into place. this is mandatory. no muslims dare nullify it regardless of arguments.

that is why the onus/fault (whichever you look at it) falls on the parties themselves.

that is why there is a syariah court. anything related to islam (conversion, apostasy, etc.) is not under the jurisdiction of civil courts. tht is why there is no such thing as legally unable to convert out of another religion. where is the illegality under civil court when it has no power to hear that in the first place.
under syariah court, it is legal by virtue of the first paragraph.

all of your arguments does not reflect what you say about not shooting my religion, though i have said many times that this is a person's fault.
I'm not sure why you keep saying I'm shooting islam when I'm not. I'm sorry if you keep misunderstanding what I say but there is nothing I can do about that.

Read my couple of posts again. I did not touch at all on the Islamic process of accepting converts. That's your field, not mine.

I merely gave my view of what it takes (in terms of actions and capacity) to legally effect a conversion out of Hinduism, and that this must take place first before a conversion into any other religion can occur.

You keep forgetting that these people were Hindus, first and foremost. And proper closure must be given to that status first under Hindu rites and civil laws (which Hindus in Malaysia asbcribe to), before any new status can be implemented.

I think it might be you who is not giving Hinduism or non-muslim religions the due regard they deserve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemukkk
if there was no capacity and thus no legality, how could high court gave daily custody but with the caveat enplaced?

the father need no assignment because as you yourself said, this is a joint guardianship.
high court's ruling of daily custody with caveat enplaced also reflects joint guardianship.
As I said. It is my opinion that the court has erred.

Last edited by seantang : 29-11-2006 at 11:25 AM.
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  #52  
Old 29-11-2006, 01:31 PM
Gemukkk Gemukkk is offline
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i know it is your opinion. i respect that. hope you understand that many lawyers and judges do not share your opinion and as such, no reviews were done since 2004.

i say that you do not understand because you dont. that is why you keep saying a must lead to b and must lead to c ----> until z. you did not know how a conversion is done and thus, did not know how simple and binding it is. as i mentioned many times, all muslims' hand are tied once the fellow do that.
that is why i say the fellow is at fault, not the process & procedures.

it is not me nor my religion that does not give due regard. as all your examples show, it is the person himself. so where does my religion be at fault?
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  #53  
Old 29-11-2006, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemukkk
i say that you do not understand because you dont. that is why you keep saying a must lead to b and must lead to c ----> until z. you did not know how a conversion is done and thus, did not know how simple and binding it is. as i mentioned many times, all muslims' hand are tied once the fellow do that.
that is why i say the fellow is at fault, not the process & procedures.
"how a conversion is done"

Yes, you have explained many times the muslim half of the conversion (in) process. But alas, it is only half the process. And it's the latter part of the process at that.

So do you know how a Hindu conversion (out) is done? Have you given due regard to that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemukkk
it is not me nor my religion that does not give due regard. as all your examples show, it is the person himself. so where does my religion be at fault?
I never said anything about religion being at fault. I am saying there must be due process, for both muslim AND hindu rites.
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  #54  
Old 29-11-2006, 02:21 PM
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yes, everyone can give due regard. so, do you know how a people convert to islam? that is why i ask you to find out if you have time. because of that, again i keep being pushed into repeating myself over and over..
a muslim's hand is tied when another has come to them and said he has converted. whether half or full process. even if a process is in place, if the person converted and come to the authorities, there is nothing the other muslim can do.

so, that is what happens now. if muslims cannot nullify a conversion, what can we do, process or no process?

it is the person at fault. so why my religion?
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  #55  
Old 29-11-2006, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemukkk
so, do you know how a people convert to islam? that is why i ask you to find out if you have time. because of that, again i keep being pushed into repeating myself over and over..

a muslim's hand is tied when another has come to them and said he has converted. whether half or full process. even if a process is in place, if the person converted and come to the authorities, there is nothing the other muslim can do.

so, that is what happens now. if muslims cannot nullify a conversion, what can we do, process or no process?

it is the person at fault. so why my religion?
G, I think we just stop lah. What's the point? We're going round in circles.

You're saying as long as the muslim side is fulfilled, it's done.

But I can't accept that. I'm saying then the hindu (or non-muslim) side needs to be fulfilled first, before the muslim side can begin.

And I'm not stating anything new, ya. This is the process precedented by the islamic process for apostasy, is it not? One must leave islam officially first, before one can embrace another religion? Or did I get that wrong also?

But no matter, we are entitled to our own views. Even panels of learned judges rarely unanimously agree with each other.
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  #56  
Old 29-11-2006, 03:01 PM
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i agree. we better stop.

yes, the hindu side needs to be fulfilled. that i agree.
if the guy come and say he wants to convert, yes, we can help out sort things from becoming a mess.

all these mess comes up when that guy come to us and say he is already converted.
when that happens, we (as in we excluding the guy who plonked down the trouble to us) are bound tight by the rules.

i hope you believe me when i say that we too are frustrated when all these happens. we are unhappy too because this gives islam a bad name.
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  #57  
Old 29-11-2006, 03:07 PM
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So basically, there is no pre-entry screening, entry screening, entry rules, pre-exit procedures, exit procedures for most religions. The only thing different is that there are apostasy laws for islam but not other religions in this country. Why should islam be any different? I think this is the point most non-muslims are asking and there is no clear answer.
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  #58  
Old 29-11-2006, 03:11 PM
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apostasy laws in islam is there all the while (not introduced locally in malaysia).
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  #59  
Old 30-11-2006, 10:38 PM
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Thumbs up Letter writers, do more than just write

About two thousand five hundred years ago, one man said, "Things are in a constant state of change". This is a Universal Law that will last till eternity.

In physical science, we see water flows, wind blows, energy transfers & so on...

In chemistry, we have chemical reactions, iron rusts, radiations, burning & so on...

In biological science, Darwin called it "Evolution".

And last but not least, in Social Science, we have "Revolutions", "Transformations" & "Reformations". Whether the changes are in slow pace or of a sudden change (Revolution), human societies are in constant changes just like others. That is we change for the better.

Hence in the olden age, any Muslim couple who were caught in adultery would be stoned to death. But now we don't practise that any more, do we?

In this modern era, we emphasise more & more on the "Individual Rights". Freedom of Speech, Indiv
idual Privacy Right, Freedom of Worshiping, Freedom of Mother Tongue Education & etc.

Therefore, if anyone refuses changes, there will be pain, confusions, conflicts & worst of all, violence & bloodshed.

Unfortunately, there are groups of Religious Extremist, they want things to be back to the olden age. They refuse to accept that changes already happened in our societies. People now are looking for more freedom, equality, happiness & justice.

I would like to share this letter from Ahmad Akmal who wrote to Malaysiakini.com today.





Ahmad Akmal
Nov 30, 06 4:38pm

The letters to the editor that have been published by malaysiakini in recent days have drawn my eyes to the fact that there are many more like-minded Malaysians out there who share my distaste at the way things are presently in our country. Written by Malay, Chinese, Indians and writers from other descents, the message is similar - something is amiss.

The Malays writers go on about how the NEP is going to destroy their race, but don’t want to speak up for fear of being labeled a traitor. The Chinese writers ramble about how bad a deal they are getting, having to still subsidise their 'country mates' after nearly 50 years of independence. One points to how even a nation that was on the brink of nuclear destruction became a world power in less than half that time, exporting all those cars. The Indian writers detail how it has been even worse for them, third-class citizens, as one points out.

The point I'm trying to get at is that, you, as part of the voting public, should do more than just vent your frustrations in writing. You have something no one can take away from you - the right to choose who your leaders are. The right to vote.

If the present situation persists, you have no one to blame but yourselves. You’re to blame for the downward spiral that your race is facing as a result of politicians sucking the country dry under the guise of the NEP. You’re to blame for being unfairly treated for nearly 50 years. You’re to blame in that you remain third-class citizens.

The time for change is now. And for those who claim that there is no other party to vote for except one religious-based party (which threatens to bring us back to the Stone Age) and one whose leading figure was once part of the same rotten bunch of leaders once, let me remind you that there is an alternative.

If you, like me, share the holistic view that meritocracy should prevail, that freedom of speech should be a basic principle, that the power to imprison a person indefinitely without a trial should be a thing of the past, that we and our country deserve better than to be sucked dry by greedy politicians, that the freedom to choose a religion or to choose not to have one should be the right of every individual, that there should be a separation of church (or in this case, mosque) and the state, then exercise your right and cast your vote.

If there is no worthy party to vote for, then vote for the independent candidate. There is no way to be sure that he or she would do a better job, but come on, it surely can’t get any worse than this. The recent Umno general assembly showed a glimpse of the future crop of leaders, such as Hishammuddin Hussien Onn and Khairy Jamaluddin, beating their chests. I can conclude only one thing - we are doomed if this lot comes to power.

I appeal for more people to run as independent candidates in the next general election. Run on the principles of equality and meritocracy, and my vote is with you. It’s time to save our country from the brink of self-destruction. You, voters, do have a say, and you do have a choice. Part of the government’s lie has been to make you believe that you don’t.

Press for greater scrutiny of the Elections Commission in the next general election and make your choice. To not do so would be a crime against future generations.

Malaysiakini.com

Last edited by ipohan : 30-11-2006 at 10:41 PM.
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  #60  
Old 01-12-2006, 01:38 AM
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i just read from the NST today that the Quran actually says

"There is no compulsion in religion"

It's really interesting how most Muslim leaders choose to interpret it:
- That no one is forced into Islam. But it doesn't mean that one can leave Islam when he/she no longer feels like it.

My Q is, what's the point of a person being called a Muslim (or being forced to be recognised as a Muslim) when he no longer feels it's his faith of choice?

It's kinda like love i think. Can u force a person to love u?
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