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Bangsa Malaysia Berikan pendapat anda bagi mewujudkan BANGSA MALAYSIA!

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  #61  
Old 01-12-2006, 01:00 AM
kanden kanden is offline
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All (the main orthodox) religions are good.

The only thing is that humans are mere mortals. N mortals err. We cannot understand nor comprehend the full design of God ... (but we can feel love.)

Religious leaders are amongst the most influential (and hence, most powerful) pple in the world. It is extremely important that they be mindful of the things they say, especially in public. We have seen many egs in the real world - the latest of which is Pope Benedict's remarks about an ancient emperor and his (-ve) views on Islam. To him (& most Catholics) there was nothing wrong with his speech (especially if you read the entire lengthy text). However, to the millions of Muslims around the world, it was total disrespect and an affront to Islam. It did not matter what the Pope said he originally meant. It did not matter that it was the Muslims who (not reading nor hearing his full speech) misinterpreted. The fact was, millions were inflamed. The result was that Pope Benedict had to apologise in public for his remarks.

The most important thing is how the masses interpret & react.

Frankly, i think that if the Pope had not apologised, the millions of Catholics n Christians around the globe could misinterpret his words and have similar misunderstanding of Islam. That would of course be detrimental to world peace. IMO, the Pope could have done without those remarks. He could have been wiser.

As for the Perak mufti, myself i do not have a good opinion of him. He's always making the headlines for the wrong reasons. I'm just a normal layman, normal guy on the street. From what i read in the press, i think he's just a narrow-minded Muslim leader.

After reading Gemukk's posts, i must say my stance towards him have softened significantly. He must be a good guy. Gemukk did give good justifications. However, some of it is not practical. Nobody on the street will look up the fatwa documents or read the full text, etc. The situation is rather similar to the Pope.

The most impt fact is how the normal man on the street interprets his words. How the Muslims interpret his words. How non-Muslims interprets his words. I agree w Sean that things would be better if the mufti had chosen to remain silent. There was nothing broken, n hence nothing to mend.

As for Marina's article, i thought it was really good actually. I have no predispositioned views about her person. The article by itself is good. And as far as i'm concerned, it strikes a chord with my own perception. And i believe, a lot of pple will agree with her views too.

I'm not really sure whether i'm being wise posting this article. I know Sean n Gemukk have called a "truce". Just wanted to add my piece to what has been an interesting thread. No offence meant.
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Last edited by kanden : 01-12-2006 at 08:55 AM.
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  #62  
Old 01-12-2006, 07:55 AM
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P-Zan P-Zan is offline
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Cheers to Marina. Frankly I only knew about the ice cream biscuit story from reading her article. So does that mean no more science and maths because every student will use the '+' sign?
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  #63  
Old 01-12-2006, 09:09 AM
kanden kanden is offline
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gemukk,

i have edited my previous post. obviously it's a little late.

hmm ... read your deleted post too. yourself and sean have been most thorough in this discussion.

i think you are a very good muslim. it's great having you here. do not be discouraged by the discussions. this is a good platform to spread understanding and to learn the perspectives of others. it really is not easy to look at things from another person's view.

i have great respect for Islam especially since the founder was so chosen to hear God's words himself.

Myself, i always believe all the orthodox religions r good. However, it is the religious leaders that r sometimes suspect. While they obviously try to do their best in their religious duties, often it is done from their own (possibly parochial) point of view and limited experience/wisdom. Thus, there could be unintended consequences. History have shown that much trouble have been caused by religious leaders. However, we also see that today's religious leaders are more tolerant, understanding and appreciative of other religions.

Despite current Islamphobia in the West, i think the world will be a better place for going thru it.

Peace
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  #64  
Old 01-12-2006, 09:14 AM
Gemukkk Gemukkk is offline
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-- previous 2 posts deleted --
have decided so.
thanks to kanden, ipohan and pzan for your posts.

if anyone has time, find out about 'no compulsion' fully.
just for info, incomplete info brings misunderstanding. that is why muslims are specifically taught that to interpret rulings without referring to the source is disalowed.
perfect example? ahmad akmal.
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  #65  
Old 01-12-2006, 09:22 AM
Gemukkk Gemukkk is offline
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thanks kanden. i appreciate your gesture.
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  #66  
Old 01-12-2006, 09:35 AM
kanden kanden is offline
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I have my own opinion of "human interpretations" of religious texts. Be it the Holy Bible, Quran, buddhist sutras or the Bhagavad Gita, etc.

The texts probably has holy origins. However, many are just interpretations of mortals. Mortals who cannot comprehend God fully. Mortals who r not infinite in their love, who have limited understanding. Mortals who have their own vendetta.

I believe that many religious texts are interpreted out of context. The interpreters choose to interpret the texts on an absolute basis. They forget the context and the situation of the day when the words were said (n thus inscribed).
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  #67  
Old 01-12-2006, 12:45 PM
One_World One_World is offline
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I find the discussion quite interesting.

At least my understanding of Islam is that much better now.

I hope Gemukk is not discourage. I admire you for the courage to speak up.

Discussion is good as long as we don't do personal attacks because their believes/ opinion differs from ours.

cheers
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  #68  
Old 01-12-2006, 03:36 PM
One_World One_World is offline
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Oops, I make a big boo boo.

Seantang, I hope I didn't come across as criticising anyone. It is far far from my mind. I do enjoy your logical and thoughts provoking comments.

cheers
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  #69  
Old 05-12-2006, 10:34 PM
ipohan ipohan is offline
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Question More than just religion

Jacqueline Ann Surin
The Sun

What does the latest tussle over a dead man between his Catholic family and the Selangor Islamic Affairs Department (JAIS), who both want to bury him according to different religious rites, tell us?

Firstly, Rayappan Anthony's case is not isolated. It is part of a series of other cases involving deceased family members, including M. Moorthy and Chandran Dharmadass, whose purported conversion to Islam resulted in their families being unable to claim and bury their bodies.

This tells us that conversions into and out of Islam, and its attendant issues, is a phenomenon that will keep emerging for so long as Malaysia is a multi-cultural society.

Secondly, these cases have implications for all Malaysians that are larger than the families' grief, trauma and rights.

"Rayappan's case, like other conversion cases, is not simply a religious issue. It is first and foremost a Constitutional issue," lawyer Benjamin Dawson says.

Dawson, a constitutional lawyer who is involved in a prominent conversion case, is of the view that under Article 11(1) of the Constitution, it is the individual and not a third party who has the right to decide his or her religion.

"An affirmation by the individual is all that is required under Article 11(1) and this can be done by deed poll or a statutory declaration for someone to affirm their choice of religion," he argues.

It was reported Rayappan, 71, who died in Kuala Lumpur Hospital on Nov 29 following a prolonged illness, converted to Islam in 1990 after taking a Muslim wife. However, he returned to his first wife and family in 1999 and was baptised into his original faith.

Rayappan had signed a deed poll in 1999 at the NRD which approved his name change from Muhamad Rayappan Abdullah to Rayappan Anthony.

In 2000, the NRD also issued a MyKad to Rayappan that stated "Christian" as his religion.

However, JAIS, through the syariah court, is contesting Rayappan's change of religion, insisting he was still a Muslim.

Dawson argues that since an individual's choice of faith is a constitutional issue, neither JAIS nor the syariah court has the jurisdiction to nullify what an individual chooses.

"In Rayappan's case, a decision by a federal government body like the National Registration Department (NRD) that respects an individual's Constitutional right is being disregarded by a religious authority," Dawson notes.

Rayappan's experience with the NRD is different from Lina Joy's, whose case is before the Federal Court.

While the department approved Rayappan's application for changes in his IC to reflect his choice of faith, it has stipulated that Joy - a Malay Muslim who converted to Christianity - must get a syariah court declaration to acknowledge her choice of religion before it will drop "Islam" from her national registration identity card.

Joy's lawyers have argued that the NRD has misconstrued its powers and that the syariah court is not empowered to decide on conversions out of Islam.

When contacted, Peguam Pembela Islam (Lawyers in Defence of Islam) protem committee chairman Zainur Zakaria declined comment, and Syariah Lawyers' Association president Muhamad Burok could not be reached despite several attempts.

Lawyer Haris Ibrahim says another significant difference between Joy and Rayappan was that being alive, Joy is the best person to state what her faith is.

"The content of her IC is not conclusive. The IC only provides prima facie evidence," he says.

However, in the case of a deceased like Rayappan where there are competing claims over the person's faith, the courts have to rely on "extrinsic evidence" such as other official documents and corroborating evidence of a person's religious practices.

"Even though JAIS has produced a card, issued in 2005, that states that Rayappan converted to Islam, that card was issued by an official. Are there backup documents to show that Rayappan was part of that process? Is there evidence that points to him having a faith other than Islam?" Haris argues.

He stresses that it is the civil courts which need to evaluate the competing evidence involved because the syariah court has no jurisdiction over matters which involve both Muslim and non-Muslim parties.

Haris also says JAIS's dismissal of Rayappan's MyKad is not as problematic as the syariah court's ex-parte decision.

Source: The Sun
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  #70  
Old 05-12-2006, 10:36 PM
ipohan ipohan is offline
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Question MAIS subpoenas Rayappan's daughters, siblings lodge police report

Charles Ramendran
The Sun

The family of Rayappan Anthony today lodged a report with the Brickfields police after three officers from the Selangor Islamic Council (MAIS) turned up at their house late yesterday to serve them a subpoenas to attend a hearing at the Shah Alam Syariah Court.

Lawyer A.Sivanesan, who is representing the family said Rayappan's three daughters namely Mary, Jeya Mary and Josephine were served with a subpoena each to attend the hearing at 2.30pm today over the fate of their father's remains which lie in uncertainity in the Kuala Lumpur Hospital (KLH) mortuary.

However, he said the three sisters did not attend the hearing as they are non-Muslims and this nullifies the subpoenas.

In their report, the family stated that since they are Christians, they will only adhere to civil court laws.

Brickfields OCPD ACP Abdul Rahman Ibrahim said police will look into the report and will act if there was a criminal element involved.

Sivanesan said he had also served an injunction to KLH yesterday, which among others, refrained them from releasing the body to any other party apart from the deceased's family.

However, he said KLH had refused to accept the documents.

"This is very unbecoming of a hospital which is a government body. This is a letter of a civil court of law. How can they refuse to accept it?" he asked.

According to Sivanesan, MAIS was issued with a Syariah Court order to claim Rayappan's body last Friday (Dec 1, 2006) but it was revoked the following day due to some unknown reasons.

However, sources revealed that the order was cancelled following an intervention from the Attorney-General's office.

Source: The Sun
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