IPOH.com.my Photo Gallery BIZ Net My Classifieds Property Maps Car Mart Hotjobs2u.com

Google
Web ipoh.com.my

Hot JobsMy ClassifiedsBidValley AuctionsIpoh DatingAutomobileIT NewsPerak WatchReal Estate
Go Back   Ipoh Community Forums > Bangsa Malaysia > Bangsa Malaysia
User Name
Password
FAQ Googlemap ME Vb Music Members List Calendar vBRadio Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Bangsa Malaysia Berikan pendapat anda bagi mewujudkan BANGSA MALAYSIA!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 25-11-2006, 09:44 AM
Ipohite39's Avatar
Ipohite39 Ipohite39 is offline
We must prevail.....
Durian - The King
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ipoh Timur, Barat, Utara, Selatan & Tengah
Posts: 3,506
Ipohite39 is off the scale
Default

Gemukk/Sean,

The important thing is that the truth must prevail. If our societal harmony is really going down the drain because of over zealousness of certain quarters, we must acknowledge it. Acknowledging such a shortcoming is the first step in the right direction. Deciding to change or not is the next which leads to action in one form affecting yourself alone or others if the reach is there. But if we are stuck in the acknowledging part still, Malaysia will only go downwards/south in terms of societal harmony aspects.
__________________
Money talks, but all it ever says is goodbye
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #12  
Old 25-11-2006, 10:04 AM
Gemukkk Gemukkk is offline
Senior Member
Watermelon
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: ipoh
Posts: 497
Gemukkk is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

that i agree Ipohite39.

i admit i extremely hate people who are in a position to bring positive change but did not do so. worse, that person takes the moral high ground and then talk cock (re: marina mahathir).

truth will prevail. no worries, because everyone is talking about everything.
but as i always infer, it is the time for 'doing' instead of 'talking'.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 25-11-2006, 10:13 AM
Yugi's Avatar
Yugi Yugi is offline
The makcik!
Durian - The King
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: homeless gradually :(
Posts: 4,528
Yugi is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Mind makcik interrupts a bit here. I did not follow what is cock and what is talk. However, a voice is permeated, listeners and readers have their own views. Don't we LISTEN or READ to the content of the SPEECH or WRITTING even the person is already well know of his/her characters and behaviors publicly? Do give everyone a chance without your accumulated biases overtime? How could a person change in our mind if WE continue to keep the same "person" in our mind? I may not right, but just some views here. Gemukkk,

P/S: Makcik don't knows who is Marina and not connection what so ever to political persons. "Peace out"
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 25-11-2006, 10:24 AM
seantang's Avatar
seantang seantang is offline
Uncle show you goldfish..
Mangosteen - The Queen
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Singapore mainly & Ipoh once a month.
Posts: 2,449
seantang is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemukkk
yes, the solutions are simple. sad that she cant execute such simple solutions. instead, she talks cock. and thus, my beef. my first post already showed that clearly.
I'm honestly not sure if anyone can right now in Malaysia. Racial politics has become a Frankenstein of it's own right, so much that parties like UMNO are forced to pander to it to survive, more than they can control it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemukkk
i havent seen anything mufti did that harmed religious tolerance. for all his fatwas, everything is clearly laid out and documented. kongsi-raya, murtad, etc. nothing in there against racial/religious tolerance.
That's a simple one. It because you and I are looking at his fatwas from different ends of the spectrum. You as a pious Muslim who sees it as beneficial religious leadership and I as non-Muslim who sees it as encouragement to further encroach one religion into the everyday lives of a multi religious people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemukkk
ifyou are referring to the recent sms case, why was mufti not charged.even the media didnt dare spin it so that it looks like raja sherrina is receiving instruction from mufti. if the media can spin mufti's fatwas, it should be no problem to spin this.
That is conjecture. It may be or it may not be. But fact is, he admitted in his own words to have "brought up the sms" a group of religious organisation representatives.

Here's a bit of conjecture from me: He's been around the block long enough to know that these guys will congregate into a gathering outside the event, just like they did during the article 11 forums. And if they felt strongly enough - the gathering descends into a mob, taking the law into their own hands. He should have known better. What did he expect would happen as a result of him telling them about the sms? What did he WANT to happen? Why didn't he just let the police investigate?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 25-11-2006, 11:23 AM
Chinerama's Avatar
Chinerama Chinerama is offline
The Kung Fu Tupai
Durian - The King
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,299
Chinerama is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Hi Gemukk,

You mentioned that Marina is just talking but not doing. The way I see it is that the corrupt government's control is so powerful now that it's hard for anyone that opposes their sinful actions to actually do anything to them. They are now like The Invincibles or The Untouchables and the sad thing is that these government people's actions reflect it too.

What we as normal citizens can do is to educate the people who are unaware of what is happening and are taken in by the token actions of the government to keep the votes (build roads before election, give out meagre freebies while they pocket the rest). So that people power will hopefully eventually force a change in our administration. Only then, will there be a change for the better for the people of Malaysia.

Therefore, what Marina is talking about in her column is actually DOING what all of us would like to do but can't as in Sean's quote below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seantang
Fact remains that if any non-Malay living in Malaysia writes an article like that in a mainstream newspaper, he's going to be wearing striped baggy pants with drawstrings, eating curry rice out of a tin can squatting barefoot next to drain... assuming that the newspaper will publish it in the first place. After all, we don't want to "force" millions to run amok.

Oh well, guess my 2 cents is up for this one
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 25-11-2006, 05:04 PM
Gemukkk Gemukkk is offline
Senior Member
Watermelon
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: ipoh
Posts: 497
Gemukkk is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

hi Yugi,
read her sarcasm up above and consider my beef. had she written it without such sarcasm, yes i would like to give her a chance..
that is why i say i extremely hate people who are in a position to bring positive change but did not do so. worse, that person takes the moral high ground and then talk cock.


hi Sean,
can or cant, is not important. will or wont, is more important. her non-achievements say she wont. her sarcasm just adds salt to the wound.

ok, you opine that it is encroachment. why not we discuss it. where did he encroach?
kongsi-raya? his full text teaches that muslims can join in/enjoy the celebrations together, but not celebrate the festival itself. you guys join in/enjoy raya celebrations but do you celebrate raya as a day of joy after a month of puasa (since you dont join berpuasa)? dig the difference? anyhow, how does a kongsi-raya fatwa encroach religion?

murtad? as i stated in another thread, this is an internal issue amongst muslims. apostasy is not allowed. period.
no one coerced anyone if a non-muslim wants to marry a muslim. you choose, you live with it. period. where is the encroachment, then?

you expect him to anticipate that. but he anticipated otherwise. does this mean you are right or he is? he brought up the issue because it is a discussion about Kongres Islam Sedunia. do you think people will talk about the weather or tomorrow's csi marathon in astro? there are CDs going around recording the discussion. go buy and watch it. then you will know that he did not instigate anything.

were you there at the time? as i posted in another thread, there was no mob-to-be gathering. people of all races were hanging out together at the time. i regret not taking pics. surf the internet and maybe you can see for yourself. there was no tension. only the media reported that. in fact, when tv channels showed scenes from that day, did anyone see a banner, poster, mob or heated shouts?
so where's the violence?


hi Chinerama,
yes, the government is corrupt. but consider this. she has a powerful (some say, dictatorial) PM as a father. and who does the government 'reports' to? the PM, isnt it?

i agree about education.
it is just that for me, it is time to 'start' to educate, instead of 'talking' about the need to educate. everyone's not that stupid nowadays.

do you feel marina wants to talk about the issue or just pour sarcasm over some people that she doesnt like?
if a non-malay writes so, what is the guarantee that life will turn out that way? if the person is a goverment staff or a businessman relying on goverment contracts, i may believe so. but what if he's employed or if his business does not involve goverment contracts?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 25-11-2006, 05:40 PM
Gemukkk Gemukkk is offline
Senior Member
Watermelon
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: ipoh
Posts: 497
Gemukkk is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

aiseh, what an embarassment

i shouldnt say "there are CDs going around recording the discussion". literally, this sounds so funny.

what i meant is that there are CD recordings of the discussion.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 25-11-2006, 06:24 PM
ipohan ipohan is offline
Senior Member
Durian - The King
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: ipoh
Posts: 11,107
ipohan is an unknown quantity at this point
Question

Hi, dear friends,

By reading through all the posts from Gemukkk, I noticed he is a strong supporter of PAS. Unfortunately, Marina Mahathir all this while is one of the strongest critics of PAS. How could she earn the respect of PAS supporters?

Forgive me if I am wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 25-11-2006, 07:05 PM
Gemukkk Gemukkk is offline
Senior Member
Watermelon
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: ipoh
Posts: 497
Gemukkk is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

yes, you are wrong to say that. it would be shallow and presumptuos to think so.
it would be sad if such tunnel vision still exists.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 25-11-2006, 09:03 PM
seantang's Avatar
seantang seantang is offline
Uncle show you goldfish..
Mangosteen - The Queen
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Singapore mainly & Ipoh once a month.
Posts: 2,449
seantang is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemukkk
kongsi-raya? his full text teaches that muslims can join in/enjoy the celebrations together, but not celebrate the festival itself. you guys join in/enjoy raya celebrations but do you celebrate raya as a day of joy after a month of puasa (since you dont join berpuasa)? dig the difference? anyhow, how does a kongsi-raya fatwa encroach religion?
Firstly, were they any muslims who were celebrating the festival itself? I don't think so. Just like I have never bowed my head when muslim doa or christian prayer was recited during functions, I, and millions of other Malaysians, have never seen a muslim participate in non-muslim religious rites. So, where was the impetus?

If there was none, why bring it up?

And yes, the full text as you said. Why wasn't the full text published? Why didn't he make his fatwa clear? If again, it's the media's fault, then maybe he shouldn't make all those fatwas when he knows it's not going to reach the public unadulterated and the media is going to miscontrue it for him. Maybe he shouldn't make all those fatwas if he knows that the muslim public will not receive his true message and go off in a tangent.

By this, the impact strains the religious tolerance of muslims for other religions. His intentions may not be such, but his impact certainly was. If you can tell me no muslim person, after hearing about this, didn't have second thoughts about sharing the celebrations of other races or question the wisdom of allowing 'displays' of non-muslim festivities in public areas - I will stand corrected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemukkk
murtad? as i stated in another thread, this is an internal issue amongst muslims. apostasy is not allowed. period.

no one coerced anyone if a non-muslim wants to marry a muslim. you choose, you live with it. period. where is the encroachment, then?
Yes, I respect that, but only if it concerns people born muslim and born to muslim parents who were born muslim.

That's because in any other situation, the rights of non-muslims will be encroached. How? By the act of conversion.

Let's take your muslim and non-muslim marriage scenario. First, I'm sure Islam does not seek to accept converts who convert simply to marry a muslim. Those who have not accepted Islam in their hearts and soul. But how do the administrators of Islam tell the difference? Right now, I feel they don't see a need to tell the difference. If that's true, then they have just reduced Islam to a practice, rather than a faith. Form over function.

When it comes to converts, you have to let time prove their faith. As you're wont to say, time will tell. But if you have a murtad ban for converts that forces them to remain superficial muslims even though they might no longer have faith, how can that be good for Islam? How can that be fair to the converts?

An alternative that I've suggested before, make religion contractual. Have them legally sign away their rights to revert, and maybe that explicit act of finality will separate the chaff from the wheat.

Second, what about the rights of the family of the convert? Where are their rights? Simple e.g. Assume a muslim and a non-muslim get married and have kids. Something happens and the kids are orphaned. The syariah court will never let the convert's family have custody of the children because they cannot provide a muslim home and upbringing. Is that fair? Is it fair that the state puts them in muslim foster homes rather than with their immediate blood relatives?

Again, maybe make it contractual. When a muslim converts, he/she must make all his/her immediate family members sign away their rights to his/her eventual children. Again, maybe this will make a prospective convert properly search their soul to determine if they really want to convert.

What about a convert's pre-conversion obligations? His non-muslim spouse and children? Recently there was a case of a man who converted to Islam and converted his kids from his Hindu marriage to Islam as well without the consent of his wife. The estranged wife is still non-muslim, but her kids are now muslim. Now, should the kids remain muslim? The civil court has pled cowardice and defered to the Syariah court. Will the syariah court award the kids to a muslim father or a non-muslim mother? Will they see common sense that the conversions were false (for the father) and invalid (for the children) in the first place?

How can a blanket ban on murtad be fair, if the issue of proper and righteous conversion is not tackled in the first place?

There are lots of other examples I can think of, but my fingers are tired

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemukkk
you expect him to anticipate that. but he anticipated otherwise. does this mean you are right or he is? he brought up the issue because it is a discussion about Kongres Islam Sedunia. do you think people will talk about the weather or tomorrow's csi marathon in astro? there are CDs going around recording the discussion. go buy and watch it. then you will know that he did not instigate anything.

were you there at the time? as i posted in another thread, there was no mob-to-be gathering. people of all races were hanging out together at the time. i regret not taking pics. surf the internet and maybe you can see for yourself. there was no tension. only the media reported that. in fact, when tv channels showed scenes from that day, did anyone see a banner, poster, mob or heated shouts?
so where's the violence?
No, I wasn't there. Not at this particular meet. But I did watch youtubes of the people hanging out in front of the Article 11 forums. Those were not very pretty.

I concede that I do not have enough information to equate the Silibin situation to the Article 11 ones. But I have no doubt in my mind, that the pendulum could easily have swung the other way, especially if the kids who were being given communion looked less like Indians and more like Malays. But yes, that's conjecture on my part.

Last edited by seantang : 25-11-2006 at 09:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dr M slams Pak Lah kanden General Discussion 315 29-04-2007 04:16 PM
Do you agree with Lee Kuan Yew that the Chinese in Malaysia has been 'marginalised' ? KatoeyLover69 General Discussion 290 26-04-2007 02:38 PM
Dr M, here are 17 more ipohan General Discussion 17 21-07-2006 10:51 PM
The Followers - Musings by Marina Mahathir seantang General Discussion 0 25-05-2006 05:14 PM
MUSINGS by MARINA MAHATHIR KHS_Ipoh General Discussion 3 02-06-2005 03:10 PM


All times are GMT +8. The time now is 11:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=
Copyright Ipoh-Online Sdn. Bhd. (411730-W) 2006